I agree, this is profound. I would like to hope that progress and decency might cleanse the stream of our progress (noun and verb) of the damns, diversions, and false directions attempted to halt our might main stream. The meandering stream accompanying your article is, afterall, a young stream, not a mature river, running true to it's full course.
Thank you for sharing such a thought-provoking piece, Elliot. The exploration of the evolving mainstream and its impact on American democracy is both insightful and timely. The analogy of mainstream currents shaping our political landscape resonates deeply with the current societal dynamics. It's crucial to reflect on how these forces influence our collective journey towards progress and understanding. Looking forward to more discussions on navigating these turbulent waters toward a more inclusive and democratic future.
As always, a well written, laser focused and spot on post. Thank you, Elliot.
At 73 years old, I am repeatedly shocked and disheartened by my own naïveté regarding our country. I served 25 years in the Navy, I was proud to serve, I loved my country and felt we were a work in progress, headed towards a better future for all of us. Today I have a sense of urgency and foreboding for our country.
What I fear is that Joe Biden is wrong — and that an immoral, unethical, arrogant, racist, sexist, opportunistic carpet bagger has grabbed the heart and soul of America — and he has shown us who we are. November cannot come soon enough.
On the day after Election Day 2016, my first thought was that America really is a racist country. More accurately, I think America is a tribal nation, with various groups acting in the interests of their group, rather than the country as a whole.
America is based on an idea, that all people are created equal and stand equal before the law. The tribalism is undermining that idea. How did America become a majority white country? The native peoples were killed off and forced onto reservations by European explorers and settlers who claimed the land for "their" God and "their" king. Then there were immigration quotas on nonwhite people at various times over the years. I hope, some day, America will live up to the grand ideals of the Declaration of Independence.
There is much to ponder here. Logic may dictate this is MAGA’s last stand, but it also might be American democracy’s last stand. My worry is the people who don’t follow the news or even vote at all.
Very well comprised and asserted. Your description of the political landscape is possibly the best I have encountered thus far. Your depiction of a group of people acting like a dam on mainstream America is especially poignant. It seems that most of those people are interested in selfish motives at best. Selfishness, by its very nature divides. Perhaps the streams are all headed to a low point where they will all willingly evaporate, such as Death Valley.
I still think (and I have had this opinion since 2016) that trump is a symptom rather than the cause of so much vitriol and ignorant bigotry in US culture. Much of what we are seeing seems like panicked and angry backlash at the changing status quo.
Trump is a symptom and the 2016 election an angry backlash to Obama being elected president. The Proud Boys and their like are also symptoms. The disease is racism and bigotry reaching back to America’s original sin. But we are also seeing a convergence of linked ideologies where Trump and vocal attention hungry MAGAts are useful idiots to the true forces behind the curtain - the Leonard Leo’s, The Heritage Foundation, christian nationalists, a patriarchal society, a feudal state where a wealthy few reign over the sweat of the voiceless masses.
Thank you, Elliot for reminding us. This is the most thoughtful and thought provoking analysis I've read in awhile. "Mainstream" has become sort of an equivalence for "majority" - that may be true for a river, but it is not for humans. The majority of Americans do NOT hate their neighbors. The majority of us are not bigots.
What is a mainstream equivalency, at least in media is respect only and solely for money.
Reporting on Joe Biden's accomplishments borrring, reporting on the trumpster and his maggots sells advertising.
This is what happens to a nation with 40+ years of idolizing wealth. Thanks Ronnie, for nothing.
Comment on the Supreme Court: There is a Constitutional option. it's called Impeachment. Historically,18 Federal Justices have been impeached; 8 were convicted and removed from office; 4 were acquitted by the Senate; 3 resigned in disgrace rather than face trial. As the saying goes 'it only takes a few good men and women' who have the courage to draw up Articles of Impeachment. Will they be heard in 2024? Not a chance! But if they are written and the Democrats hold a press conference to announce their existence, enough independent and undecided voters may vote in favor of America.
This is an eloquent and thought provoking essay, and I thank Mr. Kirschner for writing it. But I fundamentally disagree. The main stream has not changed much at least since the Great Depression almost a century ago. We forget that Nazi sympathizers (Lindberg for one) were common during the run up to WWII, that American industrialists were eager to trade with Hitler and figured out ways to do so throughout the war, the New Deal was anathema to many, Social Security was called "the Dole" and considered an insult. The list goes on. Read about it in newspapers and magazines archived on the internet.
Greed for power and wealth is nothing new and the U.S. has not been miraculously protected from villainy. Democracy always resurges. We've always had loudmouth corrupt jerks like the former president and his like, and we always will. And the corrupt jerks always try to dam the mainstream, but jerks have a problem: they hate each other as much as the hate the mainstream; they poke holes in their own dams. They are so greedy for wealth and power, they turn on each other the instant they see a flash of gold.
Their antics are horrible to watch, but evil can't avoid its own nature.
Having been born in the early 30's and a school girl during WW2, I have to disagree with your take on the impact of nazism. You are correct that Charles Lindbergh supported fascism and especially the nazi variety - it cost him his reputation and adoration as the 'hero who flew the Atlantic solo" There were other fascists but no where near the percentage we have today. They kept us out of the war until the end of December 1941. The movement became inconsequential when we went to war. The few wealthy Republicans were opposed to FDR's New Deal social safety net. And that tiny minority has fought tooth and nail to destroy the social programs FDR and LBJ put in place, But now 90 years later is the first time they've had a chance - not a possibility, just a chance to end all those safety nets.
I won't argue with you Fay, but I suggest not relying on memory and go to the sources, which are easily available online. The New York Times and the New Yorker from the 30s, for example. Look up HL Mencken. Check out Rex Stout's book on the Dunderheads.The picture is not as neat as the standard retrospectives. The minority doesn't look so tiny to me. But Hey! We each are entitled to our own perspectives.
Elliot, Excellent essay and I appreciate the rabbit hole into the etymology and use of the stream/river analogy. But I stopped cold, midstream as it was, by the ABC quote. They have it backwards.
America is a river that has two currents.
The mainstream we all see mentioned by the news media. That mainstream was, as aptly named, flowing in the center of the river - centrist politicians, centrist print and television media reporting from neither the fringe right or left, citizens with outwardly showing views on issues that fell within the middle one-third to one-half of the spectrum. This is the current which up until the early 1970’s flowed on the surface of the river.
Then there is America’s river’s undercurrent. The second current. It flowed deeper. It’s existed for well over two hundred years. It’s always been here, acknowledged by some, glossed over by others as America the way it’s always been. Racism. A class structure where a small few gain wealth and power off the sweat of the masses. Manifest destiny driven by Divine right. Exploitation of resources, nature, air, and water sold as advancement and for the good of the country, without thought of lasting long term consequences. The people herded as sheep by their politicians and their ministers preaching fear of the other, degrading everyone and everything not of their vision.
In the last fifty years, this deep, dark second current of the river has grown stronger, swifter, bolder. Widening in breath, reaching the surface, pulling the surface current, the other current, the mainstream current toward the bank on the right side.
The ABC News quote has it backwards. Mainstream has moved closer to election denial, mainstream Republican politicians closer to Trump. Mainstream media pulled to the right. All pulled by the deep dark undercurrent.
The current has decidedly shifted.
We must not let it fully merge.
The second current is now in flood. Its forces know no boundary, with few if any former historical occurrences or precedent.
What Trump embodies may not reflect the traditional mainstream America, the traditional surface current. But the second current, the deep and ugly undercurrent, pulls on each of those individual issues mentioned near the end of the essay. It’s many sub-currents that are woven into one. The debris flow enlarging, catching the anti-abortion, anti-reproductive rights branches, gun rights logs, Social Security and Medicare privatization flotsam.
Trump, MAGA, business oligarchs, the Heritage Foundation, Koch’s PACs, the Federalist Society are the deep and ugly undercurrent and they intend a flood of biblical proportions. [Edited]
Excellent insights. Too many people in the US simply presume that THEY are mainstream, and the horse-race polls that insist that the candidates are neck and neck are what we see, not in-depth polls of what Americans as a whole actually think about actual issues. The only thing we really see about "issues" is the huge discrepancy between perceptions of the strength of the economy and the actual facts on the ground. Even those stories note that when people are asked about their OWN experience in this economy, they tend to say "doing just fine." And that's always a kind of addendum to the stories about the Big Divide that really isn't.
Other things--particularly "culture war" issues--similarly show the actual reactions of Americans to these as sort of side-notes: "But of course, X% of Americans are in favor of treating LGBTQ people as equals" or "Interesting to note that Y% of Americans are opposed to book bans."
We need polling stories that FOCUS on what Americans as a whole believe, and why they say they believe them. For those not politically attuned, the "bandwagon effect" based on stories--rumors, focuses on lies by or about the candidates--is a real danger. If they are going to decide based on some bandwagon, they should at least be made aware of which wagon is more generally accepted by their fellow citizens. THAT is the only definition of "mainstream" that really matters if we are to continue to be a "united" country. There will always be dissent to the mainstream, and that's OK, but at least people with minority views should understand that they ARE minority views and that their position is in the time honored acceptance of dissent in the country. No problem with being proud of your dissent. Just know that it IS such.
The pollers have to be careful in how they ask the questions. Not broad crap like "do you agree with the GOP position on immigration." Specifics. "Do you think there should be mass deporations with holding camps?" "Do you think that the border patrol isn't doing enough? Why do you think that is?" And most currently: "do you think that legislatures should gerrymander voters for any reason? If so, why; if not why not." (This would probably need an explanation of gerrymandering).
The one I'd like to see is "do you think Christians are being persecuted." I'd really like to know the percentage of people who think that.
Very well written. Has me really thinking of what is “mainstream” considered today.frankly with the political divide I am at a loss. It’s either or and no middle ground.
I can't tell you how uplifting I found this piece. I am a leader with a local Indivisible chapter. We will work hard to keep the MN Democratic Trifecta we currently hold and re-elect Biden. However, Trump may get re-elected. We are struggling emotionally and energeticlly to find hope. We recently talked about the importance of how we will respond/"be" if he is re-elected. Your closing paragraphs give hope. We aren't alone and there are so many others working for a better future. Thank you for reminding me of that.
Thank you Elliot. Through The Fog, for me , often lifts the fog and provides clarity to ideas that had not crossed my mind or were confusing. You provide information that is clear. It is like taking a course and, hopefully, becoming wiser. For this, I thank you. At 76 it feels amazing to still be learning.
Profound and important, these remarks should be shared far and wide.
Thank you Vivien. I appreciate the kind words.
I agree, this is profound. I would like to hope that progress and decency might cleanse the stream of our progress (noun and verb) of the damns, diversions, and false directions attempted to halt our might main stream. The meandering stream accompanying your article is, afterall, a young stream, not a mature river, running true to it's full course.
Thank you for sharing such a thought-provoking piece, Elliot. The exploration of the evolving mainstream and its impact on American democracy is both insightful and timely. The analogy of mainstream currents shaping our political landscape resonates deeply with the current societal dynamics. It's crucial to reflect on how these forces influence our collective journey towards progress and understanding. Looking forward to more discussions on navigating these turbulent waters toward a more inclusive and democratic future.
In a troubling time your writing is calming. Thank you for sharing your work. Everyone please vote.
As always, a well written, laser focused and spot on post. Thank you, Elliot.
At 73 years old, I am repeatedly shocked and disheartened by my own naïveté regarding our country. I served 25 years in the Navy, I was proud to serve, I loved my country and felt we were a work in progress, headed towards a better future for all of us. Today I have a sense of urgency and foreboding for our country.
What I fear is that Joe Biden is wrong — and that an immoral, unethical, arrogant, racist, sexist, opportunistic carpet bagger has grabbed the heart and soul of America — and he has shown us who we are. November cannot come soon enough.
On the day after Election Day 2016, my first thought was that America really is a racist country. More accurately, I think America is a tribal nation, with various groups acting in the interests of their group, rather than the country as a whole.
America is based on an idea, that all people are created equal and stand equal before the law. The tribalism is undermining that idea. How did America become a majority white country? The native peoples were killed off and forced onto reservations by European explorers and settlers who claimed the land for "their" God and "their" king. Then there were immigration quotas on nonwhite people at various times over the years. I hope, some day, America will live up to the grand ideals of the Declaration of Independence.
There is much to ponder here. Logic may dictate this is MAGA’s last stand, but it also might be American democracy’s last stand. My worry is the people who don’t follow the news or even vote at all.
Very well comprised and asserted. Your description of the political landscape is possibly the best I have encountered thus far. Your depiction of a group of people acting like a dam on mainstream America is especially poignant. It seems that most of those people are interested in selfish motives at best. Selfishness, by its very nature divides. Perhaps the streams are all headed to a low point where they will all willingly evaporate, such as Death Valley.
I love your writing.
Thank you, Sara. I look forward to reading yours.
I still think (and I have had this opinion since 2016) that trump is a symptom rather than the cause of so much vitriol and ignorant bigotry in US culture. Much of what we are seeing seems like panicked and angry backlash at the changing status quo.
Trump is a symptom and the 2016 election an angry backlash to Obama being elected president. The Proud Boys and their like are also symptoms. The disease is racism and bigotry reaching back to America’s original sin. But we are also seeing a convergence of linked ideologies where Trump and vocal attention hungry MAGAts are useful idiots to the true forces behind the curtain - the Leonard Leo’s, The Heritage Foundation, christian nationalists, a patriarchal society, a feudal state where a wealthy few reign over the sweat of the voiceless masses.
That doesn't mean they won't win. The "American experiment" might prove to be a failure
Thank you, Elliot for reminding us. This is the most thoughtful and thought provoking analysis I've read in awhile. "Mainstream" has become sort of an equivalence for "majority" - that may be true for a river, but it is not for humans. The majority of Americans do NOT hate their neighbors. The majority of us are not bigots.
What is a mainstream equivalency, at least in media is respect only and solely for money.
Reporting on Joe Biden's accomplishments borrring, reporting on the trumpster and his maggots sells advertising.
This is what happens to a nation with 40+ years of idolizing wealth. Thanks Ronnie, for nothing.
Comment on the Supreme Court: There is a Constitutional option. it's called Impeachment. Historically,18 Federal Justices have been impeached; 8 were convicted and removed from office; 4 were acquitted by the Senate; 3 resigned in disgrace rather than face trial. As the saying goes 'it only takes a few good men and women' who have the courage to draw up Articles of Impeachment. Will they be heard in 2024? Not a chance! But if they are written and the Democrats hold a press conference to announce their existence, enough independent and undecided voters may vote in favor of America.
This is an eloquent and thought provoking essay, and I thank Mr. Kirschner for writing it. But I fundamentally disagree. The main stream has not changed much at least since the Great Depression almost a century ago. We forget that Nazi sympathizers (Lindberg for one) were common during the run up to WWII, that American industrialists were eager to trade with Hitler and figured out ways to do so throughout the war, the New Deal was anathema to many, Social Security was called "the Dole" and considered an insult. The list goes on. Read about it in newspapers and magazines archived on the internet.
Greed for power and wealth is nothing new and the U.S. has not been miraculously protected from villainy. Democracy always resurges. We've always had loudmouth corrupt jerks like the former president and his like, and we always will. And the corrupt jerks always try to dam the mainstream, but jerks have a problem: they hate each other as much as the hate the mainstream; they poke holes in their own dams. They are so greedy for wealth and power, they turn on each other the instant they see a flash of gold.
Their antics are horrible to watch, but evil can't avoid its own nature.
Having been born in the early 30's and a school girl during WW2, I have to disagree with your take on the impact of nazism. You are correct that Charles Lindbergh supported fascism and especially the nazi variety - it cost him his reputation and adoration as the 'hero who flew the Atlantic solo" There were other fascists but no where near the percentage we have today. They kept us out of the war until the end of December 1941. The movement became inconsequential when we went to war. The few wealthy Republicans were opposed to FDR's New Deal social safety net. And that tiny minority has fought tooth and nail to destroy the social programs FDR and LBJ put in place, But now 90 years later is the first time they've had a chance - not a possibility, just a chance to end all those safety nets.
I won't argue with you Fay, but I suggest not relying on memory and go to the sources, which are easily available online. The New York Times and the New Yorker from the 30s, for example. Look up HL Mencken. Check out Rex Stout's book on the Dunderheads.The picture is not as neat as the standard retrospectives. The minority doesn't look so tiny to me. But Hey! We each are entitled to our own perspectives.
Elliot, Excellent essay and I appreciate the rabbit hole into the etymology and use of the stream/river analogy. But I stopped cold, midstream as it was, by the ABC quote. They have it backwards.
America is a river that has two currents.
The mainstream we all see mentioned by the news media. That mainstream was, as aptly named, flowing in the center of the river - centrist politicians, centrist print and television media reporting from neither the fringe right or left, citizens with outwardly showing views on issues that fell within the middle one-third to one-half of the spectrum. This is the current which up until the early 1970’s flowed on the surface of the river.
Then there is America’s river’s undercurrent. The second current. It flowed deeper. It’s existed for well over two hundred years. It’s always been here, acknowledged by some, glossed over by others as America the way it’s always been. Racism. A class structure where a small few gain wealth and power off the sweat of the masses. Manifest destiny driven by Divine right. Exploitation of resources, nature, air, and water sold as advancement and for the good of the country, without thought of lasting long term consequences. The people herded as sheep by their politicians and their ministers preaching fear of the other, degrading everyone and everything not of their vision.
In the last fifty years, this deep, dark second current of the river has grown stronger, swifter, bolder. Widening in breath, reaching the surface, pulling the surface current, the other current, the mainstream current toward the bank on the right side.
The ABC News quote has it backwards. Mainstream has moved closer to election denial, mainstream Republican politicians closer to Trump. Mainstream media pulled to the right. All pulled by the deep dark undercurrent.
The current has decidedly shifted.
We must not let it fully merge.
The second current is now in flood. Its forces know no boundary, with few if any former historical occurrences or precedent.
What Trump embodies may not reflect the traditional mainstream America, the traditional surface current. But the second current, the deep and ugly undercurrent, pulls on each of those individual issues mentioned near the end of the essay. It’s many sub-currents that are woven into one. The debris flow enlarging, catching the anti-abortion, anti-reproductive rights branches, gun rights logs, Social Security and Medicare privatization flotsam.
Trump, MAGA, business oligarchs, the Heritage Foundation, Koch’s PACs, the Federalist Society are the deep and ugly undercurrent and they intend a flood of biblical proportions. [Edited]
The ever expanding Land of Dixie.
Excellent insights. Too many people in the US simply presume that THEY are mainstream, and the horse-race polls that insist that the candidates are neck and neck are what we see, not in-depth polls of what Americans as a whole actually think about actual issues. The only thing we really see about "issues" is the huge discrepancy between perceptions of the strength of the economy and the actual facts on the ground. Even those stories note that when people are asked about their OWN experience in this economy, they tend to say "doing just fine." And that's always a kind of addendum to the stories about the Big Divide that really isn't.
Other things--particularly "culture war" issues--similarly show the actual reactions of Americans to these as sort of side-notes: "But of course, X% of Americans are in favor of treating LGBTQ people as equals" or "Interesting to note that Y% of Americans are opposed to book bans."
We need polling stories that FOCUS on what Americans as a whole believe, and why they say they believe them. For those not politically attuned, the "bandwagon effect" based on stories--rumors, focuses on lies by or about the candidates--is a real danger. If they are going to decide based on some bandwagon, they should at least be made aware of which wagon is more generally accepted by their fellow citizens. THAT is the only definition of "mainstream" that really matters if we are to continue to be a "united" country. There will always be dissent to the mainstream, and that's OK, but at least people with minority views should understand that they ARE minority views and that their position is in the time honored acceptance of dissent in the country. No problem with being proud of your dissent. Just know that it IS such.
The pollers have to be careful in how they ask the questions. Not broad crap like "do you agree with the GOP position on immigration." Specifics. "Do you think there should be mass deporations with holding camps?" "Do you think that the border patrol isn't doing enough? Why do you think that is?" And most currently: "do you think that legislatures should gerrymander voters for any reason? If so, why; if not why not." (This would probably need an explanation of gerrymandering).
The one I'd like to see is "do you think Christians are being persecuted." I'd really like to know the percentage of people who think that.
Very well written. Has me really thinking of what is “mainstream” considered today.frankly with the political divide I am at a loss. It’s either or and no middle ground.
Very provocative essay, Elliot. Thanks for so much to think about today.
I can't tell you how uplifting I found this piece. I am a leader with a local Indivisible chapter. We will work hard to keep the MN Democratic Trifecta we currently hold and re-elect Biden. However, Trump may get re-elected. We are struggling emotionally and energeticlly to find hope. We recently talked about the importance of how we will respond/"be" if he is re-elected. Your closing paragraphs give hope. We aren't alone and there are so many others working for a better future. Thank you for reminding me of that.
Thank you Elliot. Through The Fog, for me , often lifts the fog and provides clarity to ideas that had not crossed my mind or were confusing. You provide information that is clear. It is like taking a course and, hopefully, becoming wiser. For this, I thank you. At 76 it feels amazing to still be learning.